Curse

Jeydra · Mar 25, 2011, 03:54 PM // 15:54

In view of posts like this one, this one and this one, I think it's time people on both sides of the issue backed their opinions up with deeds.

I believe Discord is generally subpar, but if someone can prove S/D/M to be the fastest I'm open to changing my mind. I'd need evidence to do that, however. So I'm challenging all the Spiritway + Discordway + Mesway users to a time trial. Terms as follows:

1. You use 2 Rits, 3 Necros at least two with Discord, and 2 Mesmers. Beyond that, exact builds are up to you. You can use a ST Rit if you want, or SoGM; you can use Panic or Ineptitude or Extend Conditions or Lyssa's Aura or whatever as long as you have two Mesmers. I'll use whatever I want, and although right now I don't have finalized builds for general use, I'm very unlikely to use more than 2 Necros, or more than one Discord (if I even use one Discord). Chances are also good I'll use an Elementalist hero with an elite other than Ether Renewal, just to see the reactions of some players I won't name.
2. You choose the area. It must be in HM and 8-man (here Unwaking Waters and similar missions count as 16-man), but beyond that you can choose whatever. I'd prefer something other than a vanquish, since chasing down stray mobs is incredibly annoying, and I'd prefer something to which you can go into at once, so no Duncan HM or Mallyx HM or similar. Try to pick an area that favours S/D/M. If you have no preference I suggest Bogroot Growths, which has oodles of bodies and quite a few physicals to go around.
3. No consumables of any kind.
4. No Shadow Form, Vow of Silence or Obsidian Flesh. Especially Shadow Form. I'm not interested in builds where you run past the entire first level of a dungeon, for example.
5. If you believe I spec too much against a particular area, I'm happy to repeat the test using the same builds for a second area of your choice (that is, we test the builds against two areas, not just one).

I'll be using an Elementalist primary. If times from a previous time trial thread are anything to go by, melee primaries should be marginally faster (primary class advantage), so if you can use a caster - but if not, whatever. Take the /age at the end of the mission, vanquish, dungeon, ZBounty, etc. You don't have to have all the bars viewable if you want to keep your bars secret, but you should have the party window open for verification.

Anyone care to try?

Spiritz · Mar 25, 2011, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quick glance id have said make the challenge with set builds - that way everyone has exact same build and is fair.

Reformed · Mar 25, 2011, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiritz

...that way everyone has exact same build and is fair.

Thus removing the entire point of this.

Personally I think this is a great idea and eagerly await some screenshots if for nothing else to see what ideas people come up with. Just don't get your hopes up that the people you want to participate will actually partake. Rules 3 and 4 remove their most treasured toys, especially 3.

Life Bringing · Mar 25, 2011, 04:37 PM // 16:37

The point isn't for everyone to use the same build. The point is that the common belief of most people on these forums is that 3 discords in a 7 hero party is the best option. Jeydra will not be using discord and is attempting to prove that discord is subpar.

While I'm no fan of discordway, I'll probably throw together a team and see what I can do for teh lulz.

Maya Cerestiez · Mar 25, 2011, 04:52 PM // 16:52

What about runes, weps and insignias on heroes? I'd suggest that every hero doing this should be fully runed with at least major vigor and best possible weapons + all needed (optimal) attribute runes + 5 insigs. Having proper equipped heroes is more important than the difference of 1-2 builds on the team.

xxfah · Mar 25, 2011, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maya Cerestiez

What about runes, weps and insignias on heroes?

That seems like it should be common sense, though. Who would enter a competition like this and NOT make sure their equipment is up to snuff?

chuckles79 · Mar 25, 2011, 06:02 PM // 18:02

May I recommend Fissure of Woe. In some areas Discord shines, and some areas the lack of corpses makes things interesting.
It's hard enough that the player has to plan and have some caution, but easy enough that just about anyone can enter with a reasonable expectation of success.

IronSheik · Mar 25, 2011, 06:24 PM // 18:24

I will do this on my ele, I rarely use discord myself but I will for the sake of comparison

Plutoman · Mar 25, 2011, 06:26 PM // 18:26

I like this.. but I side with you Jeydra, and I also play an Ele primary. May put something together and try, but I'll see.

Bristlebane · Mar 25, 2011, 07:19 PM // 19:19

I would suggest a simple vanquish.. because then you can't just speed past certain areas. FoW for example, you could just speed past a lot of critters and complete quests faster. For a VQ, you really have to kill everything.

To make it fair, pick an area that's straightforward, no maze or tricky terrain.. challenge is not who knows the map better but who kills the foes there faster.

Wenspire · Mar 25, 2011, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Something challenging like dredging the depths (aka voxlen excavations) would be good. Picking something easy doesn't really challenge the effectiveness of a build imo.

Outerworld · Mar 25, 2011, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

Something challenging like dredging the depths (aka voxlen excavations) would be good. Picking something easy doesn't really challenge the effectiveness of a build imo.

The only challenging parts of vlox are the slavers mobs so wouldn't it make more sense to set a slavers level over vlox?

Chthon · Mar 25, 2011, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Haha! I love it. I won't be participating because I don't like to take losing bets, but I will be on hand to offer barbed comments about Discord.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

May I recommend Fissure of Woe. In some areas Discord shines, and some areas the lack of corpses makes things interesting.
It's hard enough that the player has to plan and have some caution, but easy enough that just about anyone can enter with a reasonable expectation of success.

This may be a good choice. Though you'd have to normalize the quest order, pathing, rules on bypassing mobs, and whether you are permitted to pre-clear for griffons or burning forest. You can spend more than an hour just backtracking in FoW if you don't know where you're going.

The same problem might apply to a lot of VQs. If the point is to compare how quickly you can demolish mobs, spending any significant amount of time doing non-fighting activities (like looking for the last mob) could negate the results if that non-fighting activity could vary a lot from run to run or person to person.

With that in mind, I might suggest Raisu Palace HM (both players must take, say, Danika+Cynn or Talon+Argo or whatever). The mission path is very linear (and symmetric where it's non-linear), the mobs have a low amount of randomness, and there's pretty much no non-combat activities to dilute the relationship between time and build effectiveness.

Gate of Madness and Destruction's Depths might also be good choices for most of the same reasons.

Kaida the Heartless · Mar 25, 2011, 08:42 PM // 20:42

S/D/M = ?... Super Deranged Monkey? Sup, Dude Man? Stinky Diaper Mess?

Kirasaw · Mar 25, 2011, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Fow a good choise? lol

1h and 18mins using S/D/M. no cons or pcons used. HM of course

Wenspire · Mar 25, 2011, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

The only challenging parts of vlox are the slavers mobs so wouldn't it make more sense to set a slavers level over vlox?

Selves would be comparable, I suppose. I would still suggest vloxen over it though for the variety of enemies.

I would imagine anything in later parts of nightfall would be affected by lightbringer rank, so those areas wouldn't be too good.

FengShuiDove · Mar 25, 2011, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

S/D/M = ?... Super Deranged Monkey? Sup, Dude Man? Stinky Diaper Mess?

S/D/M = Read OP.

@above: How'd you get +10% with only one boss in FoW? Maybe I'm missing something obvious...

After some experimentation of my own, I don't believe the standard S/D/M meta is necessarily the best option, though it's close. Slight variants (removing Discord for example) will be far superior. So I may hop on here to find out what the differences might be.

Dzjudz · Mar 25, 2011, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Vloxen HM is a fun one. Slavers' Exile style mobs but with easy access from an outpost. Not very hard though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You don't have to have all the bars viewable if you want to keep your bars secret, but you should have the party window open for verification.

And then set a good time without Discord but say you used Discord?

EFGJack · Mar 25, 2011, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

S/D/M = Read OP.

@above: How'd you get +10% with only one boss in FoW? Maybe I'm missing something obvious...

After some experimentation of my own, I don't believe the standard S/D/M meta is necessarily the best option, though it's close. Slight variants (removing Discord for example) will be far superior. So I may hop on here to find out what the differences might be.

5g says he popped 2 sets of drugs. average sc pugs take 30-35 minutes to clear FoW and I'm having a hard time believing he takes double that without drugs, party-wide IMS buffs and without splitting.

If he can match that time and take screenshots every 15 minutes to prove the run is drug-free I'll congratulate him, but ye. 1:15 is bullshit as the running around alone takes half of that ;>

Edit: My zone of choice is DOA HM FR. Lets see how S/D/M fares without drugs/SF

Kirasaw · Mar 25, 2011, 09:29 PM // 21:29

DP remover (3\4 honeycombs) used during bforest